Those were the words heard by many a family on a 1960’s Sunday afternoon as we huddled around the radio to hear ‘Round the Horne’. Not only was the show hilarious, it introduced the nation to some of the first, if not the first, gay characters to feature in family entertainment. This was at a time when homosexual acts were still illegal, Round the Horne running from 1965 to 1968 and decriminalisation happening in 1967. As Julian aptly said in the episode in which he and Sandy were lawyers, “We have a criminal practice that takes up much of our time”. To listen to this weekly sketch within the show was to immerse yourself in three or four minutes of references to gay culture, much of it really filthy if you knew what the words meant. As an eight year old I didn’t, and the references shot over my head as they must have done for most of the listeners. It’s only now I understand that “a miracle of dexterity at the cottage upright” didn’t necessarily refer to Julian’s piano playing.
However, much as I still love Jules and Sand, that love comes with a degree of disquiet at the stereotypes they portray; gay men obsessed with clothes, manicures, and The Marine Commando Club, Paddington. That stereotyping persists today, perhaps not in mainstream British TV/novels where there are, and have been, homosexual male characters who resemble their peers in everything except who they hold hands with. But watch any re-run of “Will and Grace” where Jack and his pals are holding centre stage and we’re back to the 1960’s vision of what it means to be gay. Now, we need to be very careful here. If the argument is to take issue with “Gay men always (favourite stereotype here)” then we need to be careful not to be getting into the equally subjective “Gay men never…” This is something over which you can’t be simplistic whether in the modern setting or the historical. I rather like John Barrowman’s definition of a gay man as someone who finds other men attractive. All the rest (including whether they find women attractive, too) depends on their personality and lifestyle.
Of course there are gay guys who like dressing as women and flouncing about, but there are others who dress like your bank manager (may well be your bank manager) and like to spend their weekends packing down in the second row of the scrum. Somehow (and no doubt ‘helped’ by the media) the general feeling is that things like cross dressing must be an indication of homosexuality and vice versa, despite the fact the plenty of straight guys indulge in it. But we like to have things neatly tagged and labelled, and the crux of the thing can be hard for people to get their minds around, i.e. that gay men are as varied in their tastes, interests, and way of life as any other people. There are gay men who are scene, non-scene or who totally hate the scene. There are ones who do drugs and go cruising, others who go to church, referee rugby internationals or fly out to Cambodia to design orphanages.
So what’s the implication for the writer of m/m historical romance? On the one hand there’s complete freedom; your characters can be what you want them to be, do what you want them to do, as long as they keep within the spirit and legal/social rules of their times. If you have your two Victorian era leading men walking hand in hand down Whitehall, snogging in broad daylight outside the Houses of Parliament and then going into Westminster Abbey to have their union blessed by the Archbishop of Canterbury then you’re not doing anyone any justice, least of all you and your credibility. On the other hand, there’s the temptation to say “Ah, but it has to be like this” then giving your viewpoint on things, whether within a story or in discussion of the genre, as if your view must be the only truth. Just because a story has one of the characters getting married because of social pressure, that doesn’t have to be the pattern for all gay men to follow.
Let’s look at the novel ‘Maurice’, which might just sneak under the wire of being historical fiction because, even though it was written contemporarily, it wasn’t published until years later. There are three characters that fall within the definition of “finding another man attractive” and each plays out that feeling in a different way. Maurice seeks both physical and spiritual love with Clive and when the latter eschews bodily pleasure and obeys the expectations on him to marry, Maurice’s life becomes a turmoil of seeking help to be rid of his desires, making a disastrous pass at a woman and indulging in a night of bliss with Alec. Alec himself makes all the initial running with Maurice and, when it seems like he has been simply used and discarded, resorts to a half hearted attempt at blackmail, before he and Maurice realise that they really do love each other. Three different responses to the way the men feel, all realistic within the mores of the time, not one of the protagonists portrayed as a stereotypical gay man.
One of our greatest contemporary historical novelists, Patrick O’Brian, was equally adept at weaving men who found other men attractive into the fabric of his stories without any labels attached to them. Indeed, Jack Aubrey can’t believe the tales that circulate about his sailing master William Marshall because the officer is manly, handsome and exceedingly competent. O’Brian does have at least one pair of officers being court-martialled for breaking the articles (Jack, as one of the presiding officers employing the wonderful phrase from Stephen Maturin, “No penetration, no sodomy”) but he has others who are sufficiently discreet, such as Admiral William Pellew, to have their inclinations tolerated. And O’Brian is also realistic enough to realise than an indiscreet, indiscriminate captain who takes lovers from among his forecastlemen (as does Duff in The Commodore) is a danger both to himself and the rest of the fleet. O’Brian first and foremost understands people and presents us with consistent believable characters, whatever their inclinations.
So our challenge, in writing m/m historical fiction, is to emulate O’Brian and make our heroes fully rounded people, not ciphers or stereotypes. By all means have an aesthete swanning around Victorian London wearing his green carnation, but remember that there’ll be plenty of other gay men in the same environment who’ll be indistinguishable from the other men around them. If you want to have a Georgian frigate captain choosing all the most handsome foremast jacks to crew his cutter, so be it, but don’t forget the other similarly inclined officers who won’t be drawing such attention to themselves. Have your Edwardian hero marry because his family expect it of him, but don’t assume that every gay man of the time was either under the same pressure or felt disposed to respond to it.
And please remember that we’re still not immune, in these so called enlightened times, of falling into the Julian and Sandy trap. If John Barrowman really was rejected, as the story goes, for the part of Will in “Will and Grace” because he was too straight acting, then we’re still stuck with preconceptions that are loathe to go away.

July 1, 2008 at 1:52 pm
An excellent post, Charlie. I’ve nothing against mincing and camp – because – well yes there are many in everyday life, but as you so rightly say – let’s remember that there are many many that don’t set off the gaydar, even today.
Pellew???? Really and truly??
July 1, 2008 at 2:01 pm
Excellent! I did have to laugh at the Saturday Night Fever pose of that ref, though…
And I’m glad you said that about Will & Grace, because the two times I tried to watch it it was into the Wayback Machine, Sherman, and I’ve got to say the gay men I know don’t live in 1960-something.
This is aimed at historical writers, but just about everything you say holds for any writers, any genre.
Great job!
July 1, 2008 at 2:03 pm
Erastes… that’s NOT Sir Edward Pellew, Viscount Exmouth.
July 1, 2008 at 2:35 pm
Very interesting, Charlie. I did blink for a moment when I read the comment about Pellew
I had not heard that story about John Barrowman and Will and Grace before, but having watched the programme I think maybe he *is* too straight LOL.
July 1, 2008 at 2:45 pm
Great post, Charlie! Heh and If you want to have a Georgian frigate captain choosing all the most handsome foremast jacks to crew his cutter, so be it, but don’t forget the other similarly inclined officers who won’t be drawing such attention to themselves is pretty much a summary of my new book, ‘False Colors’. I liked Captain Duff so much, I wanted to have one of my own
On the other side of the coin, I sometimes wish that I could get away with less ’straight acting’ heroes, because the Quentin Crisps of the world are wonderful. (I thoroughly endorse his housework philosophy – after 4 years, the dust really doesn’t get any thicker
)
I think it comes down to, again, taking care that all your characters are individuals, rather than making them so ‘gay’ (or so ‘male’ or so ‘female’) that they’re not believable as real people. And yes, that extends to whether or not they get married to hide their inclination, flaunt it, pray and fast or party. There’s never been one solution for all in any situation
July 1, 2008 at 3:05 pm
Ah – must be another one then. I went and looked this chap up
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Pellew,_1st_Viscount_Exmouth
and it said he’d appeared in Hornblower and Aubrey books, so I got confused.
July 1, 2008 at 3:19 pm
Great article! And remember, too, that some writers of historical m/m *are* gay men.
July 1, 2008 at 4:01 pm
Re Pellew:
There are a bunch of Pellews – Sir Edward was the best-known, Forrester tapped him for the Hornblower series, and it would have been hard for O’Brian to write about the Napoleonic sea war without mentioning him. Sir Ed had a brother, Israel, also a captain, and he got his sons into the Navy as well (too much nepotism, methinks–one of his sons should probably have spent a few more years as a junior officer before he got his own ship.) I didn’t run into William when I was doing research, but if he was a ‘backgammon player,’ he may have been politely ignored…
July 1, 2008 at 7:36 pm
Erastes
Thank you! I, too, don’t mind the camp side of things but it’s the whole ‘tar everyone with the same brush’ notion, which I object to whatever the context.
Edward Pellew did appear briefly in the O’Brian books (Mauritius Command, I think) but I suspect that William is a totally original character. Worth reading the start of The Reverse of the Medal just for the couple of pages about him.
July 1, 2008 at 7:37 pm
Lee
I have a feeling that William Pellew was totally and OC.
Charlie
July 1, 2008 at 7:43 pm
Lee
Thank you! I agree that these should be the guidelines for writing about any characters. That’s why I love your characters so much; they don’t comply to one-size-fits-all. (Steady!)
Oh that picture of Nige – didn’t realise till I looked again. His photos do him no justice, poor love.
Will and Grace, as my middle daughter would put it, “does my head in”. It pretends to be so daring and it’s just stuck in Julian and Sandy land.
July 1, 2008 at 7:49 pm
Stevie
Thank you.
I understand that plenty of people can’t believe that John is gay because of how he is. More testosterone than the Pontypool Front Row…
Charlie
July 1, 2008 at 7:53 pm
Snakey
Cheers!
Ah yes; too easy to fall into the stereotype of all writers of m/m being female and forty plus!
Charlie
July 1, 2008 at 8:03 pm
Alex
Thank you so much! Everyone should have a Captain Duff to borrow on suitable occasions.
Quentin Crisp was great; I too would like to write a camp character into something but they just won’t play fair. My Ianto in the odd bit of TW fanfic I do has his moments but apart from that, mine are on the Nigel Owens mould.
### There’s never been one solution for all in any situation ###
Absolutely. Hear hear.
Charlie
July 1, 2008 at 8:35 pm
I think it’s a given now that the posts are excellent! ;~D
“Will & Grace” – made me cringe, not only because of Jack , but I couldn’t stand the Megan Mullalay character, Karen. I guess she was supposed to be a *hag*, but the cavalier way she tossed down pills and booze and her abysmal treatment of her maid, was repugnant!
One of the things that bothers me about over the top TV gays in the US is that they perpetuate a myth that all gay men are like this.
So we have the character of Mark in “Ugly Betty” performed by Michael Urie, a gay actor, as a flamboyant “Jack-type” and the same actor portraying an understated gay character in the play and film, “WTC View” in a remarkable performance.
What is sad is when a person is so shaped by the stereotypes he sees, he conforms to these.
“Gay men have terrific taste”, ergo, gay men can be interior designers. Er, no. Just watched “Next Design Star” and the contestant who was so over the top (even had his catch phrase – “fer-roush” ready, like “fierce” Christian in Project Runway) had excrutiating taste and was eliminated. I guess he believed the stereotype!
Gay characters are slipping in everywhere in romance novels. Just read an Amanda Quick (okay, quiet), where a positive male character is casually dubbed as one who prefers men.
Years from now when our contemporary fiction has become historical, what will they say about the portrait painted of gay men?
July 1, 2008 at 8:48 pm
Jeanne
Karen makes me cringe, too. Yes, I know it’s supposed to be comedy, yes I know it’s OTT, but really! Just not funny at all, for me. (Give me Round the Horne any day!)
Your last point is very interesting. Not just about novels but about TV programmes/films, too. There’s been a great tradition of camp comedians on UK TV (Julian Clary, Lilly Savage, John Inman, Larry Grayson) and while they can be very funny, there’s a frisson down my back of “this just perpetuates the myth”. (Like children’s menus in restaurants which are always based around junk type food – it perpetuates the belief that this is what kids should eat!)
I was so pleased to discover that my beloved Nigel Owens (the referee) was gay as a) you’d never guess in a million years and b) he’s a great role model for younger, gay, sportsmen.
Cheers
Charlie
July 2, 2008 at 2:20 am
Well done article on stereotypes, Charlie. If I do say so myself, The Macaronis has a fine group of contributors and I hope the blog finds an audience beyond just us.
I’ll fall in line with the rest of you about Will & Grace. I watched the show from beginning to end out of a misguided loyalty to “my community,” but even though it was occasionally funny, the characters were so distasteful that had these been real people, I would never associate myself with them. I was relieved when it went off the air so I didn’t have to watch it anymore.
July 2, 2008 at 8:58 am
FYI this is sweetphaex from LJ
Interesting article
For me personally is the stereotype around gay women that gets to me. There’s very little about me that’s Butch – flannalete t-shirts are for bogans/hicks girls, it ain’t a good look.
July 2, 2008 at 11:31 am
Stereotypes are never a good thing and “one size fits all” is a lie. Trust me, I know.
Gay men, like the rest of the world, come in all flavors – a veritable feast. In writing, why stick to one, sample as many as you can. Each of us, no matter who we are is individual and unique and our characters, whether gay or not, should be too.
“Ah yes; too easy to fall into the stereotype of all writers of m/m being female and forty plus!
Charlie”
Funny, before I started writing m/m I thought they were all gay men. Huh.
The media (mass) is guilty of propetuating so many stereotypes. It irks me how stupid they think we are. At my house, we frequently have talks with the kids about how advertising and TV tries to manipulate us, so they can be more aware. Now, they point it out to us.
We try to do the same about the stereotypes we see portrayed, whether is flouncing gay men, or black hoodlums, or cut-throat-bitch corporate females.
As for Will and Grace, sue me,I enjoyed it, but like Seinfeld, just couldn’t take all the whining.
July 2, 2008 at 1:29 pm
Sweetphaex!
(You didn’t need to say, I recognised the piccy.)
There’s a whole ‘nother blog about the stereotyping of gay women, isn’t there? I get so cross when I get judged on what I wear – like visiting sixth form colleges with daughters and getting talked down to because we’re all in jeans and bovver boots!
Cheers
Charlie
July 2, 2008 at 1:33 pm
Lynn
###
Gay men, like the rest of the world, come in all flavors – a veritable feast.###
I wish I’d used that line – perfect! I so agree with you about celebrating the individual and unique.
###Funny, before I started writing m/m I thought they were all gay men. Huh.###
It’s a real eye opener, isn’t it? I had vague odeas they might all be E M Forster or Alan Hollingshurst types.
Love your remark about your children. I was once at a college open evening with my eldest and she spotted very quickly that we were being spoken down to because of how we were dressed. (Jeans, heavy boots, obviously low IQ…)
Regards
Charlie
July 2, 2008 at 1:43 pm
Mark
Thank you. You’re right, this blog is remarkably good and I’m only just finding the time to discover how good. Roll on the holidays….
You make interesting points about watching out of a sense of loyalty and then feeling you have to stay with things. (Like when someone plays me some really bad Christian music and I feel guilty about thinking “this is awful…” and wondering whether I should say something.) I do wonder how you’d react to Jules and Sand? I must post to the group when the programme gets repeated online.
Charlie
July 2, 2008 at 3:01 pm
I so hate it when people play down to stereotypes. I guess being a part of any minority makes you hypersensitive to ignorant, bigoted connotations.
I tend to react angrily when I see/hear/read stereotypical behavior.
July 2, 2008 at 4:09 pm
What’s really sad is when you see that stereotypical behavior in real life. Yes, I know it’s supposed to be a perfect world, but get over it (As I say to my kids), it’s not. You will be judged by others, according to how you dress, act, talk, etc.
I tell my kids the old gem – “you only get one chance to make a first impression. What do you want them to think of you?”
Sometimes, people shoot themselves in the foot/feet by their own behavior.
When someone acts a certain way (like some awful stereotype) no matter what, why are they always surprised when they are treated badly.
So, if, pulling an example out of the air, gay men attend a gay pride march in too short cut offs, or strips of leather, or a jock strap, hanging off the back of some float that has a huge upright penis, and then denounce stereotypes of gay men…give me a break.
Now, being from N’awlins, that would just be any old Mardi Gras in the Quarter, and I wouldn’t blink at it, but the rest of the world’s going to make some harsh judgements.
I’ll probably get booed and hissed, but…
Reality Check.
July 2, 2008 at 4:19 pm
You make some very good, lovely points in here. Of course, the bibliophile in me squeed when you mentioned Maurice. *wink* I always try to avoid stereotypes when I write, whether the characters are gay or straight. You know that I role play and we try to make every one of our characters unique, with no stereotyping at all. I like to think that we’ve done a good job. *grin*
Like most of the people here, I dislike Will and Grace. Karen’s voice got to me. *shudder*
July 2, 2008 at 5:38 pm
Jeanne
For me stereotyping is part of stripping people of their worth and dignity…
Charlie
July 2, 2008 at 5:41 pm
Lynn
There’s a lot of truth in what you say – we obviously didn’t create the ‘right’ impression!
Charlie
July 2, 2008 at 5:44 pm
Jestana
You’re right about your stories – I never see any real stereotypes in them. I’m sure the role play helps in developing a range of characters and traits.
Thanks
Charlie
July 3, 2008 at 12:58 am
Excellent post, Charlie. Made me think–and that’s quite an achievement
Here in NYC, it sometimes seems to me that we’ve come full circle, men (and women) who say, “Yes, some of the stereotypes actually suit me. Rather than conform to ’straight’ ideals of behavior, I’m going to be just as camp, butch (or whatever) as I please.”
But I have to say I tried valiantly to watch Will and Grace for years and always ended up switching channels or turning the TV off. I think the show simply reflected the networks’ belief that the only way to present gay characters to a mass audience is through stereotypes. Think how frightening it would be, goes the thinking, if they showed gay people behaving like–Oh my god–people, instead of being instantly identifiable as “Them.”
July 3, 2008 at 9:16 am
Ann
Thank you.
That last point you made is so true. If you show gay characters as being just like the rest of us that might mean that – duh duh duh! – they live in your street, they go to your church, they process your transaction at the bank. You might even know one or two and be unaware of it…
I cry for our society, sometimes, I really do.
Cheers
Charlie
July 3, 2008 at 8:48 pm
“That last point you made is so true. If you show gay characters as being just like the rest of us that might mean that – duh duh duh! – they live in your street, they go to your church, they process your transaction at the bank. You might even know one or two and be unaware of it”
I remember when the blonde attorney, (Lord, I forget the character’s name) played by the actress Elizabeth Rohm, was fired and she asked good ol’ boy, Fred Thompson, “Is it because I’m gay?”
He blinked. I know the audience blinked, because at no time and nowhere during the several years she was on the show, did we get an overt hint that the character was anything other than a damn good lawyer.
And perhaps that’s the way it should be.
One of the reasons I like L&O, especially the earlier shows.
July 4, 2008 at 10:04 am
That’s not a show I’ve ever watched – perhaps I should!
July 6, 2008 at 12:17 am
[...] came across a really interesting article about stereotyping at The Macaronis, by author Charlie Cochrane who writes for Linden Bay Romance. I especially [...]